StoryToGo

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Student Stories

You Need More Than an Elevator Pitch

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With any position you hold, you most likely have a short description of it prepared for when anyone asks about what you do, commonly known as an elevator pitch. For more well-known positions, this may be enough for someone to understand your role but what happens if your field of work is new or more complex? Having a short response is necessary to have on hand but you also need to be prepared to answer follow-up questions and in some cases, defend your profession.

Art Therapy as an Example

Art therapy is a growing field and many people have yet to hear about it. Most art therapists will find themselves having to explain and defend their work to potential employers and people who are simply curious. With many clinics and organizations not yet utilizing art therapy, it is hard for art therapists to find jobs outside of private practice. Some art therapists have taken to reaching out to those sites in the hopes that they might consider adding an art therapist to their team. In this case, much more than an elevator pitch is needed.

Egyptian women painting with water colours, on the banks of Heisa Island Aswan, as a part of an art therapy session.
Art therapy in Aswan, as photographed by Rowan El Shimi (via Flickr).

Representing Yourself

When I say that art therapy combines models of counselling with the creative process to facilitate healing and growth, that is only a snapshot of a complex profession that holds entirely unique experiences for each client. That statement does not contain the nuances and different processes that may be involved during an art therapy session.

Illustrating anxiety on a colourful mind map.
Illustrating anxiety as photographed by Anima Visual via UnSplash.

When it comes to representing yourself you need to be able to answer questions efficiently and professionally. Questions you might ask yourself when preparing might be:

  1. What is my definition of my profession?
  2. What is my approach and how adaptable is it?
  3. What does a session typically look like? What are the applications of my profession?
  4. What population do I work with? Think ages, genders, cultures, socio-economic status, specific mental or physical conditions, etc.
  5. What is my intake process? (new client procedure)
  6. How do you know when a therapeutic/professional relationship should end?
  7. What does current research say about my profession?

Common questions people ask about art therapy are:

  1. How is art therapy different from art class?
  2. How is art therapy different from “art therapy” colouring books?
  3. What is the difference between counselling and art therapy? What are the benefits?
  4. How can art therapy work for me?
    • A question like this is the most important one to pay attention to when trying to promote yourself. It is easier for someone to see the usefulness of something when they can see it working for themselves.
    • This cannot be answered so simply without knowing a client’s needs and goals. Short answer: It would be determined and explained in the intake process and explored in the initial sessions as art therapy is applied differently for each client.
  5. If I bought an art therapy directive book, what would be the difference between completing it on my own versus working with an art therapist instead?
Rohingya children drawing pictures of what they witnessed in Burma.
Inside a UNICEF child friendly space, supported by UK aid, at Batukhali refugee camp in Bangladesh, art therapy helps Rohingya children recover from the trauma they have experienced. (Photographed by Anna Dubuis of DFID, care of Flickr.)

I will show how I would answer these questions later on in the article but please note that the answers will vary between different art therapists.

Be Prepared for the Unexpected

One night, I was out for dinner with some friends and we started talking about our jobs. One of them was familiar with the counselling process but had not heard of art therapy. At first, I gave my elevator pitch but they were curious to know more. As the conversation went on, it became clear that they did not see how art therapy could be effective. This caught me off guard as I was not ready to defend my profession at a casual dinner. I could feel the knowledge I needed retreating into the deep corners of my brain as the pressure set in with everyone waiting for my answers.

My friend’s questions revolved more around how art therapy could work for them. They also had a hard time understanding that an art therapy session is not the same as attending an art class or having someone supervise you while you make art. I talked about my approach to art therapy and how each art therapist ascribes to different psychological theories so the process would vary and also be tailored to the client’s needs. I also explained that similar to counselling, art therapy does not work for everyone. I did my best during this conversation, however, it ended with them still having a shaky belief in the effectiveness of art therapy.

After this conversation, I reflected on the questions and concerns that were raised so I could prepare myself for any similar situations in the future. Since I was caught off guard and didn’t have quick answers, I fear that contributed to my friend not taking myself or art therapy seriously. I honestly felt embarrassed that I had such a hard time since it made me feel that my profession was seen as a joke by someone close to me. Queue the imposter syndrome. I knew that what I have done so far with previous clients has been effective and made lasting impacts so I was able to find comfort in that. It is also near impossible to memorize every benefit and application of art therapy.

I want to take this time to acknowledge that in some cases, people have already made up their minds and there is not much or anything you can say to change it. Try not to be hard on yourself for not being able to gain someone’s support. Especially when you are unexpectedly on the defence.

Representing Myself as an Art Therapist

Below are my answers to the questions mentioned above. They will change as I progress through my career as I am a newcomer to this field. Again, the answers to these questions will vary between art therapists and it is common for clients to ‘shop around’ until they find an art therapist or counsellor that they connect and align with.

  • What is my definition of art therapy?
    • Art therapy is a mental health profession that combines models of counselling with the creative process to promote healing and growth. Through the use of art materials, personal exploration can lead to discoveries, understandings, and resolutions. No previous art experience is necessary!
    • Follow up: Sometimes words can be limiting in their definitions and expressing through art can expand those boundaries. It can transcend the spoken word and serve as a non-verbal means of expression.
  • What is my approach and how adaptable is it?
    • I take an anti-oppressive, person-centred and postmodern approach. Sometimes I will provide an art directive and sometimes I will leave the session completely open for you to create whatever needs to be expressed, also known as an open studio approach. I will also work with you to identify what is positive and functional in your life so that we can nourish what keeps you well.
    • I believe that you have the ability to bring the change you seek. You are the expert on your life and you have the power to take the session wherever you want. We will work together to find how much structure you require on your healing/growth journey.
    • An art therapy session with me is tailored uniquely for each client. I recognize that what works for one person, may not work for the next and that could include utilizing a different theory and therapeutic approach.
  • What does a session typically look like?
    • This varies for each client but it typically starts with a check-in where we discuss anything the client wants to bring up since the last session and if there is something specific they wanted to address that day. This is then followed by the art making and then of course a discussion of that art and the process. For some, there is no discussion after the art if they feel that is enough for them and it aligns with the goals that have been set. Some also talk during the creation process.
Students creating collages from magazine clippings in an art therapy class.
A Converse University student lead art therapy class. (Care of Flickr.)
  • What population do I work with?
    • While my practicum experience was primarily with elementary school-aged children and some seniors, I plan on working with all ages in the future. This may change as I gain experience and move through life.
  • What is my intake process?
    • This question is unique to each therapist and depends on multiple factors. Some may choose to offer a short phone or video call consultation to conduct the intake. Some may choose to have an entirely self-serve digital intake process and then discuss it during the first session. Since I am still a student, I don’t have a personal answer to this question yet.
  • How do I know when a therapeutic relationship should end?
    • Ending a client/therapist relationship happens uniquely for each client. Sometimes the end date is set during the initial sessions and sometimes the ending is based on set goals. It is the art therapists job to make note on when benchmarks are being met or not.
    • If progress does not seem to be happening, the treatment plan should be revisited and changed in the hope that it might be more effective. In some cases, a client may need to be referred to someone else.
    • If art therapy is not effective with one art therapist, it does not mean the client should give up on art therapy. As I have mentioned before, everyone has a unique approach with different perspectives. Compatibility is important.
  • What is the difference between counselling and art therapy?
    • While counselling and art therapy share similarities, art therapy can provide a non-threatening alternative to traditional talk-based therapy. Themes and topics are explored through art making which can be less threatening and confrontational for some. While talking can be a part of an art therapy session, a session can be done in complete silence and still be effective.
    • Art therapy can also address physical concerns and improve self confidence by increasing artistic abilities.
    • Some people see both a counsellor and an art therapist to get support in multiple areas.
  • What does current research say about my profession?
    • The short answer here is that research shows art therapy to be effective on a similar level to counselling but existing studies are not capable of showing the true effectiveness of art therapy due to how they were conducted (research limitations).
  • How is art therapy different from an art class?
    • Hopefully after explaining the points above, one would understand that difference but to elaborate further, art therapists do not teach clients technique or evaluate the quality of the art. The focus is on the process and the content, not the quality. A safe space is created for clients to not feel intimidated to meet certain standards.
  • How is art therapy different from ‘art therapy’ colouring books
    • While colouring books can feel therapeutic and serve as stress diffusers, they are not the same as working with a trained professional toward growth and change. They can be a tool during the therapeutic journey but the process requires much more. This answer would be the same if you were to purchase a book full of art therapy directives.
Soldiers exploring clay in the Resiliency through Art program at the Vicenza Art Center.
Soldiers exploring clay in the Resiliency through Art program at the Vicenza Art Center. (Image care of Flickr.)

You may not ever need to get this in-depth during a regular conversation but it helps to be prepared. Throughout my conversations with people, I’ve noticed that the main issue people struggle to get over is that art therapy is a form of psychotherapy and not an art class.

Pay attention to what people ask you when you are first getting into your field of work. Take note of the most common questions and misconceptions so you can be prepared with answers in the future. If you have any other business tips or stories about defending your profession, feel free to drop them in the comments!

Art Prompt: Strengths Fan

Paper fan, decorated with your words of strength.

In this summer heat, you need a fan to keep you cool! What better way to beat the heat than fanning yourself with your own strengths that you have identified about yourself? Okay, air conditioning is pretty cool too.

Materials Needed

  • paper (8.5 x 11)
  • stapler or paperclips
  • pens, coloured pencils, markers, etc

Instructions

  • Fold the piece of paper alternating directions until you have an accordion like piece of paper.
  • On each fold, think of and write a strength about yourself. Think about things that you are good at or important parts of your personality.
  • Decorate the fan in any way you please
  • Staple or paperclip the bottom to keep it together and you are ready to fan away

Reflections

This prompt is meant to help you think positively about yourself and identify how strong you are in various areas. Sometimes, the fan is left blank in some spots and that is okay. You may find yourself to be comfortable with the amount of strengths listed or you may use the blank spaces as inspiration to one day fill them with more strengths.

Bjorn Yearwood fanning himself with his strengths fan.

As usual, completing this is not equivalent to attending a session with an art therapist but is meant to give you a glimpse into what might be explored.

If you feel so inspired, share a comment below and share your strengths, tips and / or queries in sharing your elevator pitch. Thank you for reading!

Exploring Art Therapy Theories

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Art therapists often utilize multiple theories and approaches in their practice, but usually have one or two art therapy theories that provide their guiding principles. When I first started studying art therapy, I had a limited understanding of a few theories and was completely clueless as to how I would build an approach. With the large volume of therapeutic models, it was difficult to find what aligned with my personal values as an art therapist, as I was not yet in a place where I felt comfortable in my approach.

To listen to this article, click the red play arrow on the SoundCloud recording below:

Keep reading to learn about a few different art therapy theories and how I inform my approach to art therapy.

Digital drawing of a sphere containing shapes fitting together like puzzle pieces
Ideas Connecting Like Puzzle Pieces (2022), Bjorn Yearwood

The Vancouver Art Therapy Institute’s course on history and theories introduced me to some of the founding art therapy philosophies and theories as they emerged and evolved through time. Some art therapy theories felt that they were right for me but as I continued exploring them, I found that they weren’t the right fit. The same went for the theories that I was initially hesitant to embrace.

As I researched and closed any misunderstandings, I was able to identify what theories would guide my practice. My personal theory should be viewed as living and constantly evolving as I progress through my art therapy training and career. I was also advised that I should never put a theory in stone because if we create a closed system out of our theories, we will not be able to respond openly to new contexts.

A Sample of Art Therapy Theories

Going into every existing art therapy theory and approach would be quite a heavy read so I have selected a few to provide a glimpse into what is out there.

Gestalt Art Therapy

Gestalt theory focuses on the idea that change can naturally occur when someone expands their awareness of what they are experiencing in the present moment (Corey, 2011). My interpretation is that employing a Gestalt approach to art therapy would focus more on the process of the art-making and the client’s immediate perception of their art. Through the sensory experience of art therapy, clients can gain insight about their relationship with their environment.

Postmodern Art Therapy

Postmodern principles reinforce the belief that there is no one style, construct, and medium that is appropriate for every client.

Alter-Muri and Klein (2007)

Postmodern approaches to art therapy resonate with me because they promote implementing multiple approaches and using them based on what is best for the client. What works for one client may have a different outcome with another. I also tend to use a solution-focused approach when a goal is defined. I think about what can be done in the present to get to what is wanted or needed in the future. There is much more to postmodern approaches than this but these principles are what stood out to me the most and help guide my practice.

Person-Centred Art Therapy

My therapeutic approach is mainly informed by person-centred principles. If an environment has the correct conditions, I believe that people can identify problems, make their own goals, and make the effort to reach them through self-directed means. This is known as self-actualization. I aim to facilitate an environment where that change can take place.

What Is the Goal?

The client not only has to work towards change but their ideal self needs to be in harmony with how they see themselves in the present (Corey, 2011). This doesn’t mean that they need to always be at the height of their goals, but rather that they have an awareness of and hold acceptance for where they currently are on their self-actualization journey. This awareness includes the acceptance that self-actualization is an ongoing process and a continuous struggle (Corey, 2011). The congruency between the present and future-self is an important factor in the client feeling empowered about where they stand throughout the process.

Yes, I know this sounds like I’m saying the client does all the work so you’re probably wondering why an art therapist would be necessary if someone is capable of making their own change. The art therapist can provide the space and the tools that a client may be lacking so that they can start or continue their efforts towards growth. Throughout the therapeutic relationship, the client and art therapist will work together to find what is needed to meet the client’s goals. This could even mean using a completely different approach!

What’s My Approach to Art Therapy?

Digital art block with a character based on the author with overlaying text "My Therapeutic Approach"

I have already touched on this briefly but to elaborate, I take a person-centred and postmodern approach that allows me to have the client lead the session while also utilizing other approaches as they are needed. For longer sessions, I may come prepared with a warm-up activity that I find relevant to get the session rolling but I always provide the opportunity for my clients to create freely, followed by a discussion.

I typically do not provide art directives or prompts when facilitating a session because I want the client to create and express whatever is needed in that moment as opposed to following a plan I made based on our last session. I might have felt it to be beneficial then but there could be completely different circumstances or problems to work through by the next session. Of course, if it is identified that the client needs more guidance or a different approach to reach their goals and it is requested, I will come prepared with a plan.

I want to address the fact that there is much more information on the theories and approaches than I have presented, including my own. What you see is a snapshot of an expansive world. Trust me, I’ve written about 13 pages on person-centred theory alone. If you would like to learn more, please look to the references at the bottom of this article. As I continue my studies and articles, you will most likely see how my working theory continues to evolve. I’m glad to have you all on this journey.

Art Prompt: Creating With Nature

twigs and branches put together in the shape of a tree on grass

If you’re looking for a reason to get outside, then this activity is for you!

All you need to do is roam around your neighbourhood, go to a park, or anywhere that you can find objects to create with.

To the left is an image of a tree shape that I made with fallen branches and leaves. I found it interesting that what was once part of a whole tree was put back together in the image of its former body.

Please do not pluck or pull any plants or living organisms from their home when completing this activity. The goal is to find objects that have been discarded and create something new. This one is a fun activity to get outdoors but it might also provide an opportunity for reflection on your relationship with your environment.

References

Alter-Muri, S., & Klein, L. (2007). Dissolving the boundaries: Postmodern art and art therapy. Art Therapy: Journal of the American Art Therapy Association, 24(2), 82-86.

Corey, G. (2011). Theory and practice of counseling and psychotherapy. Cengage learning.

Featured in Feedspot’s Top 10 Canadian Storytelling Blogs

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What a great way to start the day off, by opening an email from Feedspot Founder Anuj Agarwal congratulating us on being featured in Feedspot’s Top 10 Canadian Storytelling Blogs! We sit at #4, and find it rather fitting that on a list of Canadian Storytelling Blogs that a Newfoundlander sits at #1!

Have a read to discover the other wonderful sites on the list!

Top 10 Canadian Storytelling Blogs

What’s made us even happier is that after reading we decided to look up Feedspot’s Top Canadian Travel Blogs, which is a top 70 list. #12 on that list is Go Far Grow Close, a travel blog developed by one of our past students, Nicole Hunter, in our BCST 1073 (now BCST 3073) – Building Your Digital Media Presence and BCST 1193 – Social Media Storytelling. This is very well deserved, as Nicole has worked hard at her storytelling, approaching it with love, passion, and attention to details on things like SEO – continuing to build, learn, grow, and develop long past our courses. Well done, Nicole!

Our own digital travel magazine, Roamancing, is also on the list at #19! And we see a number of other friends of ours from the travel community featured on the list as well. Check them out!

Top Canadian Travel Blogs

Congratulations to all the sites listed, and for all the hard work and passion that you have poured into your storytelling over the years!

Also a shout out of thanks to Grant for the Web, BCIT, and CNIE (through the AMTEC Trust Award), whose support have helped to fund much of our storytelling here the past couple of years.

Art Therapy Student Life: An Introduction

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As a new member to the StoryToGo Team, you probably don’t know who I am! My name is Bjorn and I finished my undergrad at the University of Victoria last summer where I earned a Bachelor of Arts degree in psychology with a minor in art education. I am now a student at the Vancouver Art Therapy Institute where I am studying to become an art therapist. Through my posts, I aim to document my life as a student as well as introduce readers like you to the field of art therapy and its many benefits. Who knows, maybe you will decide that this is the field for you!

To listen to this article, click the red play arrow on the SoundCloud recording below:

What Brought Me to Art Therapy?

Art has always been an interest of mine but I didn’t take it seriously until I discovered the field of art therapy. I started off without a minor added to my program but I started to feel like something was missing. I yearned for a creative outlet but I wasn’t sure how to incorporate it into my studies. Sure, I could take a fun elective but if my program was feeling dull then, I felt as though I would find my future career to be dull as well. I searched and searched on what I could do with my psych degree and stumbled across art therapy. I immediately knew that it was perfect for me because I was able to combine my passions of psychology and creativity.

I added art education as a minor just before my final year at UVic so I could get a foundational background in art before applying for art therapy programs. Altering my degree so late in my studies made me nervous but I noticed a major improvement in how much I enjoyed my coursework. I also know many people that have changed their majors multiple times and are now thriving. Sometimes finding what is right for you takes time and that is perfectly okay.

What Is Art Therapy?

At VATI, I have learned that art therapy is a mental health profession that combines the process of creative art expression with models of counselling and psychotherapy to enhance emotional, physical, and mental health. It provides the client with an opportunity to explore personal problems and potentials, resolve conflicts, and facilitate self-awareness and understanding through the use of simple art materials. 

A tranquil scene of nature made by me (watercolour)

Art therapy has been proven to be effective in areas such as: 

  • Addictions or substance use issues
  • Developmental disorders and disabilities
  • Coping with physical health conditions
  • Depression, anxiety, and mental health
  • Trauma or Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD)
  • Acquired Brain Injury (ABI)
  • Aging and geriatric issues

Because art making occurs within the realm of the imagination, it opens the door to the story, and to remembering important events that may have been forgotten, or whose significance is unknown.

Tracy Councill

In my own practice, I aim to facilitate a non-verbal means for individuals and groups to connect with and express thoughts and emotions that are difficult to communicate. Sometimes words can be limiting in their definitions and expressing through art can expand those boundaries. While talking can be a part of the art therapy process, I view the act of expressing through art to be successful.

Art Prompt: Colour Walk

If you are looking for something creative to do this week, I recommend going for a colour walk around your neighbourhood. You can do this by yourself or with others if you choose. The goal of this activity is to connect you with your surroundings.

Materials Needed

  • camera

Steps

  1. Pick a colour.
  2. Walk around your neighbourhood/community and search for your colour.
  3. Take pictures that showcase your colour of choice. How creative you get with this is up to you!
  4. Walk around for as long as you see fit.

Questions to ask yourself

  • Is there a reason you chose your colour? If so, Why?
  • How did you showcase your colour in each image? What led to your artistic decisions?
  • What did you find interesting about the colour walk? What stood out the most?
  • Did you make any discoveries?
  • Were there any difficulties? Was your colour hidden or abundant?
  • Has your connection to your surroundings changed as a result of this activity?
  • If you did this as a group, you can discuss these questions with each other. The group aspect is interesting because even if you all take the same route, you will have different photographs to share.

*Disclaimer: Completing this activity is not equivalent to an art therapy session with a qualified professional*

Colour Walk in Red
A sample from a colour walk I did following the colour red.

I still have a year left at the Vancouver Art Therapy Institute and have a ways to go before I can become a registered art therapist. Currently, I am completing practicum hours at an elementary school where I am learning a lot and having fun. Each day I fall more in love with the profession and I am excited to take you all along on this journey.

You can get additional updates by checking out my Instagram.

References

Canadian Art Therapy Association. (2017). What is art therapy.
http://www.canadianarttherapy.org/what-is-art-therapy/

Councill, T. (2016). Art therapy with children. In D.E. Gussak and M.L. Rosal (Eds.), The Wiley handbook of art therapy (pp. 243-251). Malden, MA: John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

Learning Stop Motion Filmmaking With Lego

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As some of you may have guessed, we wear many hats. We are storytellers, educators, technologists, scientists, dancers, and marketers. We love that the work we do allows us to put on those many hats, and enjoy the different experiences and facets of our work, including still getting a little bit of kid time with Ahimsa Kids.

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Loving this book.

Recently with that, I had the opportunity to work with an intelligent and engaging 10-year-old, who once he finished his school work, we were able to dive into the world of edtech and stop motion filmmaking together. Stop motion is something he has a keen interest in, along with lego, and he’d just been given the Klutz: LEGO Make Your Own Movie book. It didn’t take long after flipping through the book, which was a 2018 Toy of the Year finalist, for me to become just as hooked as he was on the process. So the two of us embarked on making our own first stop motion lego film together.

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Leafing through the pages.

This was a fun cross-curricular project to embark on. In the process, my young student developed and wrote a story, learned to storyboard …

This image has an empty alt attribute; its file name is Storyboarding.jpg
Laying out a scene from the storyboard.

… and filmed a stop motion movie. We brainstormed and experimented with blocking and special effects. My young student’s huge assortment of lego helped with this, along with scene backdrops in the Klutz: LEGO Make Your Own Movie book and all sorts of items in the LEGO Movie Maker Building Kit (which he’d got for his birthday), from which we learned how to build an adjustable stand for our camera (aka smartphone).

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Utilizing one of the backdrops and our newly built camera stand.

Finally my young student troubleshot how best to record the various voice overs for the project, and he and I will eventually edit the stop motion film together – that piece we did not get to on-set, so are planning to get together to finish in the not so distant future. Lego does have a free movie making app to help with the editing process, called Movie Maker, but we decided to use iMovie for this, as earlier on the set, my young student had shot his first documentary and I’d taught him how to use iMovie to edit it.

This image has an empty alt attribute; its file name is Setting-up-for-a-new-scene.jpg
Setting up for a new shot.

I have to say, this was a lot of fun, and something I could see wanting to incorporate into my school, if I still taught in a school. With this, I could see this being a full language and media arts project, a station set up in the classroom for kids that finished their other work early, a makerspace activity, or an after school club. It is also a fun at home activity, as well as a great project for homeschoolers. I myself am now looking for excuses to play with making lego stop motion movies in our work – possibly in future tutorial videos for StoryToGo or for one of my Master of Educational Technology videos. My young student kindly gifted me the LEGO Movie Maker Building Kit, and I am going to buy the Klutz: LEGO Make Your Own Movie book for myself, my nieces and nephews, and a few of my friends’ kids, as this really is such a fun experience. I can see why Lori was so fascinated by her visit to the Laika Studios and learning about stop motion storytelling there.

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Using one of the backdrops to create the perception of flight.

If lego stop motion or stop motion in general is something that you’ve been having fun experimenting with, I’d love to hear any tips and tricks you may have, and to see your videos, if you want to drop your thoughts and links in the comments below. And if you have been creating lego stop motion or stop motion videos with your students, whether in traditional school or homeschool settings, I’d love to hear about how and what is working for you and your students, in the comments below.

Thanks! I hope you have fun with this!

Nicole Hunter Making Radio Waves: A StoryToGo Student Success Story

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Nothing is more exciting than seeing your students’ projects start from scratch and then reach great heights. Nicole Hunter from BCIT’s Building and Engaging Communities course is doing just that! Under the guidance of instructor Erica Hargreave, Nicole set out to build a platform to share her family’s travel adventures and tips. Nicole has traveled all around the world with her four children, making her stories quite intriguing. Soon after building her website Go Far Grow Close, Nicole was featured on a radio interview with Martin Strong on Roundhouse Radio 98.3 Vancouver.

Nicole’s interview stresses enjoying family trips, not surviving them. She gives great advice on different styles of vacations based on the ages of your children. It’s clear she has a wealth of knowledge to draw on and is eager for others to share the same rewards her family has enjoyed through travel.

Take a listen for yourself and be inspired to try something new: http://cirh.streamon.fm/listen-pl-7874